(The Great Debate from Nov 7th, 2021)
"Thank you for taking the time to read the Debate between myself and her Majesty, Queen Laya of Helheim. You will find this debate to be a tale of two halfs, with the first topic supposedly being about magic and so forth. And the second being about theism. The first half of the debate I believe went firmly in the hands of Basilica, since the Queen tried to establish a false dichotomy between Religious belief and magical and scientifical advancement. As if the two are mutually exclusive. Many of her points were dismissed by the moderator. It became apparently that there is much agreement between Helheim and the Basilica on how dangerous magic can be, and why it must be regulated with Helheim actually supporting stricter laws on magic. The second half of the debate belonged to the Queen, and exposed some flaws with the Basilica. I will leave it to you to read and make your own conclusions, but the second half of the debate is definitely where it spices up considerably. Still, common ground was found and understanding I believe, as well as a useful chance to dispel rumours about the Basilica. Enjoy." ~Ralathos [2021/11/07 10:57] ʟᴀʏᴀ ꜱᴘᴜʀɪᴜꜱ-ʀʏᴅᴇʀ (decembertwentythird): approached the debate platform and would visor her brow with her magical hand to peer into the crowd. She'd be looking for her LOVING husband. But she'd pout when she'd not see him. Sighing a long sigh, she'd be annoyed at herself for missing him terribly. Nonetheless, she'd unfurl a scroll of materials from her belt and gave a wave to the members of the crowd. Her children and mother were there at least which did cheer her up and put a smile on her face. At Ralath's arrival too, she'd move towards him and extended a hand, a simple gesture of good will. "It's an honor, Ser Ralath. I am excited to hear your arguments on this day." Deacon was always an enigma to her. Perhaps the crotchety old man and her were much alike in their role in court. Tyr's prime advisors in many ways. Thankfully she wasn't as wrinkled as he was or he'd be Queen! "Deacon." she'd give him a nod as well. [2021/11/07 11:01:06] Ralathos: made his way to the debate and took his place on the podium, fiddling about the papers and looking over what was there. He didn't bring many notes himself, he was quite happy with his position and arguments. Studying the brief bits of information he had brought though before he glanced out at the crowd. He was relatively surprised so many cared enough to come, but pleased all the same. Smiling briefly at the crowd and looking over those he recognized, and several he did not. Notables from other Kingdoms even, it was all very impressive. However when the Queen came over, he left his podium and did the same. Moving towards her and bowing his head first. "Your Majesty." Before he took and shook her hand. "The honour is mine, I am glad we can have this debate and I thank you for the oppertunity to represent the Basilica. Rather than it being represented through various peoples ideas of it, I can actually present those ideas. Then whatever happens, it can be judged fairly at least." Bowing his head again before [2021/11/07 11:01:06] Ralathos: he gestured to her Podium. "I wish you luck in your presentation." Before he made his way back to his podium. [2021/11/07 11:02:29] Deacon Iskander: gave the queen a respectful nod of his head as she addressed him. “Good day your Majesty.” As she was focused mostly on her opponent, he’d graciously be silent as he prepared his thoughts, once the two had greeted each other he’d request very formally that the queen return to her dais in hushed tones, while he was the moderator of this debate He was not keen to give “instructions” to those of much higher standing. He gripped the edges of the dais with pressed lips and a low sigh, he’d been requested to Moderate this debate by the Royal Family for reasons that were beyond him. Alas He would do his duty, and would do so to the standards expected by the great Kingdom of Helheim. So, with a decidedly authoritative and projected voice the old human would speak to those in attendance. “Greetings citizens and visitors to Helheim. It is the Kingdom's honor to present to you a debate between two pillars of society. Representing magical science, Her Majesty the Queen of Helheim, Laya Spurius. [2021/11/07 11:02:30] Deacon Iskander: Representing religion, archon of the Basilica, Ralathos. To be clear, nobility nor rank shall be used by either party during the course of this debate and I will exercise common law authority as needed to maintain order and a respectful debate. Deviations will not be tolerated from the subjects as agreed upon by the two parties." The advisor to the court would clear his voice, and look down to the scroll a moment just to make sure that he was enunciating the topics clearly. “The topics as agreed are the costs and benefits of magical practice, and theism and Helheim.” Those red eyes would peer at the two who would be arguing the topics, these topics were generally the things that started wars. He just hoped people would allow reason to sway the day, for a change. “With this in mind, I officially began this debate. Opening statements will now begin, the Queen will start oral arguments. I ask the audience to please keep their comments and behavior appropriate for this venue.” [2021/11/07 11:04:32] ʟᴀʏᴀ ꜱᴘᴜʀɪᴜꜱ-ʀʏᴅᴇʀ (DecemberTwentyThird): "And I wish you luck as well. Truly, I don't view this as some competition like a court case. Rather, a forum for intellectual curiosity. I hardly think we'll inspire others to new beliefs, but, hopefully it's enlightening and engaging." she'd give him a respectful nod back before she'd hear Deacon's call to begin oral arguments and she'd retreat back to her podium. She'd give Ralath a moment to return to his place too before she'd ready to proceed. [2021/11/07 11:06:08] ʟᴀʏᴀ ꜱᴘᴜʀɪᴜꜱ-ʀʏᴅᴇʀ (DecemberTwentyThird): cleared her throat and she'd swiftly begin, "Friends, countrymen, nobles and leaders of the court. May it please our city...." "To prostrate yourself before the Gods is a subversion of Free Will." she'd say free will so emphatically that it almost sounded as a proper noun. "My name is Laya-Quinn Spurius, Queen of Helheim, and I am here today to denounce the idea of conventional worship of the Gods in return for blessings and magical boons in favor of adopting the scientific method as an alternative for sating our thirst for a better life. Demystifying the universe can be an arduous and perhaps dangerous process. My opponent today may attempt to argue that tinkering with magical design beyond our current comprehension is folly. He may even use historical evidence from past events to try to paint me as a Faustian figure whose thirst for knowledge will ultimately lead to hardship and suffering. However, to this I say that such an argument lacks any concept of what I am to name 'symbolic infinity.' By [2021/11/07 11:06:08] ʟᴀʏᴀ ꜱᴘᴜʀɪᴜꜱ-ʀʏᴅᴇʀ (DecemberTwentyThird): this, I mean they don't understand, and so they fear what they don't deem measurable in outcomes. Yet, to apply the folly of old outcomes and attempt to apply the same outcomes under new conditions is a rather preposterous prospect. Dogmatic myopia guided by the moral authority of the church Gods has long repudiated the notion that new magitech should be created to bring Helheim back to the Golden Age of technology which once made our country a veritable heaven on Sincadere since the Great Cataclysm." she'd pause a beat and drew a new breath. "Instead, the church and it's forbears, namely the inquisition and the puritans respectively, chose to, in the wake of tragedy, soothe their grief by supplanting their will for faith to see their society healed. And, as part of their teachings, the Gods have so said in their doctrines to do no further magical experimentation. Why? Because human ascent in technology almost once threatened the need for their worship. They were made obsolete once by ingenuity. That is to [2021/11/07 11:06:08] ʟᴀʏᴀ ꜱᴘᴜʀɪᴜꜱ-ʀʏᴅᴇʀ (DecemberTwentyThird): say, lifespans dramatically increased to nigh-immortality. War was eliminated thanks to guardian constructs who upheld the law. Hunger and disease, so far as I can tell from the sources given there was little to no mention of either, were gone. And this was all part and parcel of a Godless society. One whose Gods had abandoned them long ago." "Our spiritual forbears, the scientists and inventors of Helheim should be the archetype of human excellence. They understood the concept of 'symbolic infinity.' That is to say, they weren't deterred in their efforts to quantify that which was believed to be unmeasurable. There are many things in our universe that we're limited by that are seemingly infinite. Time and space being among them, however, they too are only symbolically infinite because we've developed measurements of space and distance just as we've developed rational methods to quantify time. The same too, can be applied to magical science which would lend to the mastery of an infinite well-spring of power [2021/11/07 11:06:47] ʟᴀʏᴀ ꜱᴘᴜʀɪᴜꜱ-ʀʏᴅᴇʀ (DecemberTwentyThird): which lies on this planet. The ley lines and arcane floes, so far as we've measured, are endless in their energy. Given this knowledge, I have come today to propose this source of energy to supplant relying on Gods to obtain magical blessings." "With all that said, what will it take to harness this power? Will. Simply put, the belief in oneself that the perceived limitations put on them are actually non-existent barriers. Through study, we can unravel all of the problems the Gods so offer a panacea to without having to sacrifice this Will through worship. Our medical advancements make us grow closer to immortality each year. You now have lighting and heating available in your homes to stave off the cold. You'll soon be able to communicate long distances without having to travel. We've identified other planets in our solar system and the building blocks of life. --- With just a bit more effort.. We can surpass every gift a God could offer us while only bowing to the morality of the TRUE law. Man's law. The [2021/11/07 11:06:47] ʟᴀʏᴀ ꜱᴘᴜʀɪᴜꜱ-ʀʏᴅᴇʀ (DecemberTwentyThird): laws of the King that have instituted civility by mortal men for mortal men. With that said, it is my greatest hope to convince everyone in attendance of the great need for new scientists in this country rather than clergymen. We will revive our golden age when we make God from our machines." "To prostrate oneself before a God would be a subversion of Free Will. One will only lead to stagnation and ultimately for our great empire to fade into obscurity." Of course, since that was a mouthful, she'd not neglect to wiggle a finger at her Mother for her grin after her presumably lengthy speech! [2021/11/07 11:13:26] Deacon Iskander: was respectful as he observed the queen, for several minutes, as her opening statement took quite a while. One normally saved some things for the middle and end of the debate. He’d blink a little as she finished, and remembered that he should alert the other party it was his turn. “The floor is now yours Arch Paladin for your opening statement.” [2021/11/07 11:20:08] Ralathos: returned to his podium and looked over the crowd once more, then smiled to himself as he turned his attention to the Queen. He was going to enjoy this. He smirked a little during the Queen's speech and when it was done he nodded too her. "Well, first I would like to thank you all for coming. And secondly the esteemed and noble Monarchy of Helheim for allowing this discussion." Before he took a deep breath, shuffled his notes and then got to it. "My position is simple. That faith is an important part of life for many. Not just the Basilica and the Gods we worship, but for all people across this land. Many hold to different Gods or different beliefs. The world we live in is full of mysteries, wonders and strange powers that often shape and define how we live. Many of us will go our whole lives without truly understanding or even comprehending many of them. There are realms beyond this mortal, material plane, I believe we have some guests here who are more acquainted with them." Eyes moving over some in the [2021/11/07 11:20:08] Ralathos: crowd. "As such, I believe that faith helps us find strength, hope, motivation and meaning in our lives. That what we do, and more important what happens after we are gone, matters. That this life is not the end, not all of us are so fortunate as to have such grand life spans, or a version of immortality. Many of us struggle against dangerous and adversity. Many of us suffer." He sighed deeply. "Faith is something that can help us push through that, to find a deeper meaning and a deeper truth to what we experience. Our world changes rapidly, and life here quickly. The Basilica is no different. What it was, is not what it is now. To put it simply... much of what it used to do it no longer does. Times have changed. We do not have Inquisitors anymore roaming about. The Basilica does not control the policy, neither legal, diplomatic, or ethical. Helheim is in the hands of its rulers, and its rulers are not the Basilica. My position is that this city allows people of all types to live within it, it should allow [2021/11/07 11:20:09] Ralathos: those of different faiths too." He nodded simply. "However, those faiths should be judged on what they actually believe. Not on what is common gossip or what common "beliefs" about what we believe. And during tonights debate, I will elaborate on many of those things. Thank you for your time." Before he looked over to the Queen and then Alex and nodded. [2021/11/07 11:24:54] Deacon Iskander: peered at the man with a perked brow, finding some of the content to be rather interesting. Deacon would thank Ralathos and turn towards the queen. “Opening statements are now concluded. I now turn the floor over to Her Majesty, with the topic The costs and benefits of magical practice.” He’d gesture to the queen with a formal and respectful manner and would keep an keen ear on the words spoken. [2021/11/07 11:37:07] ʟᴀʏᴀ ꜱᴘᴜʀɪᴜꜱ-ʀʏᴅᴇʀ (DecemberTwentyThird): would thoughtfully listen to the highlights of Ralath's opening statement. Having a magisterial background, she'd be writing down a few of his key themes as points of contention. She'd give a look to Deacon soon after he was finished before she'd begin to speak. "I share many sentiments with Ser Ralath and the Basilica in relation to the need for living a contented life with a decent quality thereof. In fact, I even find some virtues espoused by religions to be admirable. But on the topic of magical practice, dogma leads to disunity. This can be universally true in the application of the law. The idea here is that the Gods, each with their different views on moral authority don't share a strong dichotomy with man's law. And it's fine to say that the King's law wholly governs the lives of Helheim's denizens, but ideas that are antithesis to the dictates of those laws can be found within religion. To be sure, up until recently, there have been many denizens of the city who've felt oppressed by the [2021/11/07 11:37:07] ʟᴀʏᴀ ꜱᴘᴜʀɪᴜꜱ-ʀʏᴅᴇʀ (DecemberTwentyThird): application of the ideals of the Gods in relation to racial acceptance within the city. This has caused those laws affording equality of opportunity to be shirked in favor of rather foul treatment to be applied to some." she'd pause a beat and moved back to the topic at hand, "The same rules can be applied to magic when religious doctrine conflicts directly with the King's laws. For example, there is strong litigation already on the prohibition of certain magic in the city. It was authored by a council of experts to ensure proper oversight of magical practice. Most if not all degenerative magic, as it is so known, is banned within the city with the exception of certain types of necromancy that do not defile our own burial sites. So, to the question of magical practice, I would like to say that the restrictions in place are more than adequate to avoid those past failures alluded to that caused the great Cataclysm. The current dogma would go beyond the already reasonable restrictions, much as the Puritans and [2021/11/07 11:37:07] ʟᴀʏᴀ ꜱᴘᴜʀɪᴜꜱ-ʀʏᴅᴇʀ (DecemberTwentyThird): Inquisition once did, and bar any potential progress to be made scientifically." [2021/11/07 11:45:58] Deacon Iskander: found the argument the queen made to be straddling the line for the purposes of this debate, it spoke of the rules in place regarding magic and how it related to religion's place in such things, but of what benefit did she speak of? “I will permit this statement as a matter of record, though I would request Her Majesty to in the future please stringently keep to the topic presented, which was to be the costs and benefits of magical practice, Arch Paladin please address her statement and she will be permitted a rebuttal. Thank you.” Why had he agreed to this... [2021/11/07 11:51:29] Ralathos: turned to watch the Queen curiously, tilting his head slightly as he regarded her. Before he smiled as she finished her points, it was going as expected, and thus quite a big deal easier than he imagined. He shuffled his papers just to be fancy a bit, jotting down some of her points so he didn't forget them. "First of all, on the charge of the Basilica's former crimes of Oppression and Racism, a simply we are guilty will suffice. Such things have existed within the Church, they used to exist a great deal more. These days... not so much, and those who continue to deal in such things have been and will be dealt with further." He shrugged his shoulders briefly. "But to point out the flaws with your argument, it is based on many misconceptions about the Basilica. Racism is not part of our scriptures or beliefs, there is nothing in the divine texts about it. Second, as you stated in your opening statement incorrectly... the Basilica does not fear or want knowledge or scientific advancement repressed. Nor do I see [2021/11/07 11:51:30] Ralathos: any evidence what so ever that Scientific method or experimentation or advancement is counter to faith. One can have faith in the gods, and experiment with new technology and magically implementation." He glanced to the Queen again and raised a brow. "In fact, the Basilica in its teachings does not prohibit magic with its dogma, it just believes it is dangerous and needs to be controlled. Which is a view point many can agree with, hence why so many magical schools and teaching places exist. So people can learn to control magic and use it without being a danger." He sighed before he continued. "It is also a fact, that actually since the Basilica does not make the law for the city. That is it is Helheim that actually prohibits certain types of magic, and regulates it use in Helheim. NOT, the Basilica. As such, I state that you have not made any point about the actual use of magic in how its costs and dangers relate to the Basilica." He smiled faintly. "And in my experience as a Guard of this illustrious city, [2021/11/07 11:51:32] Ralathos: I can also say that any rules on the prohibition of magic that you spoke about... are not written currently into the laws of Helheim which the Guards enforce. The ONLY current law that is enforced is a magical license is required. So your point there needs some work, although I would be in favor of such laws being enacted, that would be a decision for the Crown and not the Basilica." Before he glanced to Alex and bowed his head. "That is my rebuttal." [2021/11/07 11:56:04] Deacon Iskander: watched the Arch Paladin as he gave his statement, listening to the rebuttal with a dogged intensity. If nothing else the Advisor took his role seriously, making sure things stay on track and were otherwise what he expected. The rebuttal took the path he expected, cleanly addressing the points the queen brought up without going beyond the boundaries she’d set by her statement. He’d nod his head and turn towards the Queen. “Your floor, Majesty.” said formally, respectfully. [2021/11/07 12:06:39] ʟᴀʏᴀ ꜱᴘᴜʀɪᴜꜱ-ʀʏᴅᴇʀ (DecemberTwentyThird): would defer a nod to Deacon, "Of course, Deacon." she'd say, knowing that she'd weaved just a pinch of a grievance on other issues in to circle back to the argument. She'd make no more mention of the characterization of the Basilica's more antiquated ideals and instead chose to focus on the latter parts of his statement after digesting them. "It makes for a rather sour debate when we agree on more than you might now. There is rather comprehensive litigation that does exist on the prohibition of certain types of magical applications. Mostly in terms of transduction, or how the power for spells themselves may be afforded. I would be willing to work with you, the King, the Regent and the Basilica after this debate to make sure those laws are dutifully adhered to." she'd have to concede on that point. She was actually a proponent of common-sense magical laws. "More specifically, I think our point of contention will be on the design of magical technology. I speak from personal experience when the leadership [2021/11/07 12:06:39] ʟᴀʏᴀ ꜱᴘᴜʀɪᴜꜱ-ʀʏᴅᴇʀ (DecemberTwentyThird): of your Basilica has even imposed an embargo upon my designs under the threat of protest. This is where I think our debate lies. The fusion of magic and science, in it's application will ultimately make magical use both safer and drastically increase the standard of living withing Helheim as it already has. Look around you." she'd say to the crowd and pointed towards the square, "We've conquered the dark. Heating fills the Keep, not from fires, but from magical energy. We've made devices..." as a paltry trick, she'd put her mouth to the receiver in her mechanical hand and blared the megaphone, "THAT CAN ALERT THE CITY IN TIMES OF PERIL." perhaps a cheap trick, but one that would make the use of the magitech seem at least sexier. "We have limbs to replace the hands of our soldiers. The Grand Marshal himself even wears one and so do I." she'd hold up her missing hand and wiggled the magical fingers. "So my question in rebuttal to you, Ser, is wherein comes the harm in such magical design? Do you believe in [2021/11/07 12:06:39] ʟᴀʏᴀ ꜱᴘᴜʀɪᴜꜱ-ʀʏᴅᴇʀ (DecemberTwentyThird): limits on magical technology? If not, then such protests would be an exercise in futility, would they not?" [2021/11/07 12:12:16] Deacon Iskander: found the Queen's counter point to, more-so be an agreement. If this was how the debate went it may not be as contentious as he feared. “I believe that is a fair rebuttal, surprisingly the two sides may have more in agreement then once we feared. Arch Paladin I will permit a quick response, and then the floor will be yours to discuss theism and Helheim.” [2021/11/07 12:15:19] Ralathos: smiled at the Queen, he was enjoying this, his stance was the easier one since hers was woefully outdated. "On the contrary your Majesty I am happy to take the chance to enlighten and educate you on how much you have in common with the Basilica. And how little it is getting in the way of anything." He chuckled briefly before he gestured to the Marshal, and then to her little voice amplification device thingy. "Thank you for making my point for me. The Basilica is not blocking these devices being used. Nor developed, that is why are they currently being used and developed. I myself recruited a magical construct device into the Helheim Guard recently. If the Basilica opposed this... then why would I, one of the highest ranking members of the Basilica actively encourage it hm? I think you are confusing opinion with church dogma and peoples views with facts. A common error." He sighed deeply. "In fact your continued error about the Basilica having a say in how Helheim is run continues. You do not need to work [2021/11/07 12:15:19] Ralathos: with the Basilica, just the Regent and the King to make the appropiate changes to the law to restrict magic further. You CAN include the Basilica in such talks. But you don't have too. At all." He shrugged before he gestured to the Queen. "But to make the point clearer, No I have no issue about Helheim developing stronger weapons or magical construct devices. Nor does the Basilica. Nor does "protesting" about an idea you have count as en embargo. You are the Queen, in short, no one is stopping you doing much of anything. I would appreciate if the Basilica was no longer used as an excuse when clearly it is not getting in the way of anything, as the Marshal's arm proves, as your device proves, as the latest recruit of the Guard proves. The only limits on magical technology I believe in, I don't believe are possible to exceed. You are welcome to try as much as you like, it does not bother me nor anyone of true faith. If someone in the Basilica does bother you about such... I suggest you come talk to me about [2021/11/07 12:15:20] Ralathos: it and I will deal with them." Giving her a grin. [2021/11/07 12:19:07] Deacon Iskander: as a man who was raised to respect nobility and royalty it took every part of the older man not to smack the young fellow for the attitude he displayed. Just because this was a debate and on the stage He was equal to the queen, in terms of the debate, it still wasn’t proper to be so…flippant. Not that the old man would display this beyond giving the young man a glare. “I believe that this succinctly addresses each side of this argument suitably, Arch Paladin please present the topic theism and Helheim.” [2021/11/07 12:32:55] Ralathos: glanced at Deacon and smiled faintly, a glare not bothering him much. Although he was a bit surprised the magical side was dealt with, he could of gone on more on that part. Still, he was happy to move on. "Of course." Before he moved into his opening statement of Theism and Helheim. Clearing his throat briefly before he began. "I will die in battle one day, of this I am certain. I fight for Helheim often and regularly, against people and creatures that are usually trying to kill me. I am protected only by my skill with a weapon, and well crafted, thick armour. I have no special powers, no special forms, no enhanced healing. I exist purely as you see me now, just a man." He shrugged. "It is a great comfort to me that one day, when I die in battle, that my soul will move onto the Gods, be judged, and be reborn. That is the conform and value of faith to many. If I am lucky I will die in a glorious battle making a difference, but more likely it will be just something rather simple, and if I am unlucky, not even [2021/11/07 12:32:56] Ralathos: an important battle. That is why the Basilica often appeals most to Humans, to understand that the world is more than we see. That there is more out there. Many realms exist, some creatures know this to begin with. Demons and Devils know the infernal and abyssal planes and realms well. It stands to reason that the opposite exists, Celestial and Divine realms. Humans do not have access to these, nor do we know of them save through the teachings of the Basilica usually." He frowned briefly. "The Basilica has thoughts on many things, but its actual dogma is not known to many outside it. In short, live will, die well, and the Gods will take care of your soul. But many across the land of Sincadere believe in a form of spirituality and divine. Or infernal. Same difference. My point is simple. These beliefs are integral to many peoples lives, to many peoples existances. They are a source of strength for many of us. And to those who do not live the lives of important individuals, who work, toil and suffer [2021/11/07 12:32:57] Ralathos: unnoticed. The Basilica tries to care for, to protect and to help, as do many other faiths." He glanced to the Queen then. "And that these beliefs are never going to dissipate or go away, in a world where demons, devils and celestials walk among us." Before he looked back to the crowd. "However, the Basilica is these days a small organization, of no significant power. It does not enforce things, it does not make the rules or set the standards. It might have done, but things have changed for the better. So I say that the Basilica while a part of Helheim, does not interfere with Helheim as a whole nor affect how it is run anymore. And that my honourable opponent in this debates constant references to the past when it did are nothing more than that, the past. Helheim today is a Monarch, one separated very well from the Basilica. As it should be, and as I a high ranking member of the Basilica advocate for it to remain so." He shuffled his papers then, before glancing back to Deacon. "Thank you." [2021/11/07 12:38:02] Deacon Iskander: found that for the most part the man stayed on topic, speaking of the various realms and what it meant for humans to have faith. He’d find himself nodding along with his comments, seemed reasonable to the very human and quite mortal Deacon. Though he also could not deny the power and the benefits of magic. This was a rather strange place to be, agreeing with both sides. “Your Majesty?” He’d ask politely, his eyes turning towards the queen, gesturing for her the floor for rebuttal. [2021/11/07 12:44:37] ʟᴀʏᴀ ꜱᴘᴜʀɪᴜꜱ-ʀʏᴅᴇʀ (DecemberTwentyThird): waited for Deacon's all clear before she would poke a finger against the lectern and would declare in no uncertain terms, "This is the issue with Gods. Arbitrary moral authority with no true litigation to make a proper bedrock of common understandings. The impetus of this entire debate was that your Fevren came to me and expressed explicit disapproval of magical technology and the creation of new frameworks. He'd threatened me, that my work would lead to the destruction of the city and stated that he'd actively work against my efforts of scientific advancement." she'd give him a sharp look, "This half-hearted attempt to diffuse responsibility onto me as some great lack of understanding about your tenets is categorically false. I understand everything I know about the beliefs of the Basilica directly from experience. And to shirk the fact that a collective who has influence over many in the lower city has no collective-bargaining power would also be a rather foolish notion. The actions of the church can [2021/11/07 12:44:37] ʟᴀʏᴀ ꜱᴘᴜʀɪᴜꜱ-ʀʏᴅᴇʀ (DecemberTwentyThird): directly influence policy, Ser Ralathos. The King's court is arbiters of the people. We're not potentates that are so ignorant to cloak ourselves in some sort of blinders to the suffering or cares of our people. Therefore, the actions and dogma of your church DOES have an impact on policy. However, when those tenets directly conflict with the freedoms held sacred by the law, be it against life or liberty of our countrymen, it breaks down the fabric that holds this country together. So as stated in my opening dogma leads to disunity." she'd pause a moment. To her side she could see Frederic in the crowd and she'd exhaust a long sigh. "I would urge introspection. Perhaps a council of the Basilica to address these issues into a more broad doctrine. To see citizens harm themselves over beliefs and antiquated notions of anthropo-hegemony is a direct affront to the decency and laws this society was founded upon. It was just yesterday your leadership denounced this practice. And merely a week ago they came to me [2021/11/07 12:44:37] ʟᴀʏᴀ ꜱᴘᴜʀɪᴜꜱ-ʀʏᴅᴇʀ (DecemberTwentyThird): condemning magitech development. I ask the crowd, as I end today, what do these Gods stand for? What purpose do they serve if there is no cohesive message? Are we to believe the Gods are arbitrary? Fickle? And flawed, just as we are? And, if so... Why not simply follow your own moral understandings you've collected over experience. Why not strive for immortality through invention?" she'd then give a polite bow of her head to the crowd and one too to Ralath, "Thank you again as well for all who came out today. I am glad we could talk on these matters as civilized beings and countrymen." [2021/11/07 12:50:38] Deacon Iskander: certainly didn’t blame the queen for focusing her attentions on a specific topic, it was how one won debates after all. He’d prefer that they’d kept things more generic in general, but alas this was closer to the end of the debate, “Ralathos, your floor for rebuttal. Once it is complete the queen will have her closing arguments, then you will have your own. Please remember to keep things generic towards the topics and not to name specifics…” He’d give the queen a look, appreciating her tactic if not the actual implementation of it! [2021/11/07 12:59:03] Ralathos: turned to the Queen and listened, and couldn't help but smile. It was going better than he had expected. Still, he did the best he could to remove the smile from his face for most of it. "Really? I thought this debate happened because you issued a flier saying denounce all Gods, then issued an open invitation for it to be debated. Which I took up. Also in the court yesterday, you publicly retracted the statements of that flier." Reminding everyone present of that. "I am unaware of your private conversations with Fevren, and can only advocate that he prosecuted by the law for threatening you. It is a grave crime for anyone to threaten a member of royalty. I can only say that he is an old man, many of his views are old, outdated and by the sounds of things illegal. Deal with him as you will, he does not speak for the Basilica in those matters. Merely his own views. As for your knowledge of the Basilica being based on your experiences dealing with it, again you make a point against yourself. Your experiences [2021/11/07 12:59:04] Ralathos: are limited, especially compared to someone actually a part of it. I do not tell a magic user what it is like to use magic. You are not capable of telling me what the Basilica's actual full dogma and beliefs are. Merely based on interacts with what sounds like an old man who is a relic of a former time. The modern Basilica does not have that power, nor do half of what it used too. You mentioned Inquisitors before, we no longer have them. I would be the first to oppose them, they would undermine the authority of the Guard. I cannot understand why they were allowed to begin with personally." Shrugging his shoulders once more. "But as you say, many of the Lower City do believe as the Basilica does. So I would recommend that you and I sit down and I will happily inform you more deeply of the details of those beliefs. So you can more accurately take into consideration the views of the Kingdom when you make decisions. As for a council of the Basilica... again we are a very small organization these days." He [2021/11/07 12:59:05] Ralathos: sighed deeply. "Although, on your final point of immortality through invention... I am curious why we would seek that? If that is what you seek then so be it. But many are quite comfortable with their own mortality. I have no issue with my inevitable death, it unites me with all those who have lived and died before me. I think a better focus would be invention and innovation for a better defended Helheim and a better quality of life. Rather than an artificial extended one personally." He looked to Deacon and nodded. [2021/11/07 13:03:54] Deacon Iskander: would simply blink at the man's statement, did he just say the leader of the Basilica didn’t SPEAK for the Basilica? It took most of Deacon's self-control not to comment on that, moderators after-all were not intended to regulate that part of it. He’d simply raise his eyebrows and gesture to the queen. “Your highness, your closing arguments for this debate please...” How in the world would they put a closer after THAT proclamation? [2021/11/07 13:19:43] ʟᴀʏᴀ ꜱᴘᴜʀɪᴜꜱ-ʀʏᴅᴇʀ (DecemberTwentyThird): didn't look ruffled in the slightest by the rebuttal, she'd smile back. Truly, she'd gotten everything she'd desired. For her it was never about their Gods, but it was completely about the embargo. And the man just denounced Fevren publicly! She'd smile back big enough before she'd look to the crowd. "You've heard it here today, folks. Some of the Basilica's supposed leadership espouses beliefs differing to the core message that Ser Ralathos endorses today. The only just verdict would be that dogma leads to disunity. When moral dictates, arbitrarily peddled by the supposed Gods are left to the interpretation of individuals the only product can be injustice, oppression, and lawlessness. I came here today to simply propose an alternative. Should one eschew such theological studies, there would hardly be a need to attempt to enforce any brand of morality other than the King's law. For, as Ser Ralathos concedes, that is and should be the standard for right and wrong." with a flippant wave, "In short, I [2021/11/07 13:19:43] ʟᴀʏᴀ ꜱᴘᴜʀɪᴜꜱ-ʀʏᴅᴇʀ (DecemberTwentyThird): actually rather like the Basilica that Ralathos proposes. In fact, I would be the first to champion him as a paragon of what this New Basilica should embody. For, it's a Basilica that allows for the expression of Free Will without any foreseeable restrictions that would be antithesis to the King's laws. In short, I would be glad to sit down with him and learn about their specific teachings. As expressed before, I truly only speak from my personal experience. And, my personal experience is that the religion was prejudicial in some aspects that disallowed free choice. Dogma has caused disunity. As it has for centuries with the continuing war between the celestial Gods of the JLE and the dark Gods of the Cabbala. And so I say to that.. Free will is the logical alternative. So when you return home today, people of Helheim, friends, nobles, and honored guests, it's my encouragement to rely on your own strength of arm and heart and brain to react to life's adversities. To rely on arbitrary disembodied Gods is [2021/11/07 13:19:43] ʟᴀʏᴀ ꜱᴘᴜʀɪᴜꜱ-ʀʏᴅᴇʀ (DecemberTwentyThird): tantamount to defeat. Lift yourself up. Use science and understanding to empower yourself. Use ingenuity to solve problems rather than waiting for something else to solve them for you. May invention bless you all with keen minds. Thank you." [2021/11/07 13:26:59] Deacon Iskander: narrowed his eyes to both members of the debate, feeling like he’d missed an underhanded agreement of some sort, and he’d be extremely blunt in his statement. “The Basilica, under it’s current leadership was granted approval by the King, and this forum and debate will with all due respect your Majesty, not be the place to advocate for any changes. Period. Furthermore, Arch Paladin it is unseemly for a member of the order to publicly denounce his own leadership while representing the very body he leads. I would remind you both that I agreed to moderate this debate in the context of the generic debate of topics, not crimes, or people, or specific bodies. Arch Paladin please state your closing comments, and I remind you again to keep it on topic and not stray into current politics or situations.” He’d give the queen a rather cold look, not pleased to have his name dragged into such a blatant stunt. [2021/11/07 13:32:13] Ralathos: watched the hubub and rabble rabble response from the crowd and had to use a fair amount of self control to hide his amusement. Looking to Deacon and bowing his head. "Of course, I was merely responding to the alarming accusations from the Queen brought up here today." Before he continued. "Allow me to clarify. The Basilica has one purpose and one purpose only in Helheim as I see it. To tend to reverence of the Four, and to care and protect those in need. Any deviation from this path is stepping outside of the Basilica's sacred duty and irrelevant to the path of faith. Helheim is beset by many problems and adversities. Faith has purpose, it helps people deal with these problems. I believe it gives me the strength, a mortal man. To cross blades and battle demons that are centuries or millenia older than myself. And triumph, as I have done." He smiled faintly. "It gives support and comfort to those struggling without much, and in need of spiritual guidance. Those who wish to help the poor, the suffering, those [2021/11/07 13:32:14] Ralathos: who are preyed upon by demons or worse. Those who fall victim to Necromancers, those who hex, curse, and enchant innocent souls. That is the purpose of the Basilica. Any wishing to help in that sacred mission are welcome within the embrace of the Basilica. And that sacred purpose should continue within Helheim, it is important. And not one that can be performed by the Guard of Helheim solely, who are busy dealing with very real threats. Spiritual comfort, spiritual aid and divine worship are a right the people of Helheim should and can enjoy. The exploration of the divine realm through study, is a worthy endevor. Dedicating ones life to these pursuits and helping people is a worthy endevor. Nor does it conflict with one of science. After all, it is very possible to help those in need through such new advancements. However, magic is a threat, and should be controlled. Either through schooling or by law. The Basilica supports such action. And any wishing to help those in need, such as the many who live in [2021/11/07 13:32:15] Ralathos: Lower Helheim who do not enjoy the comforts of the Upper district. Well... there is a path to do so within the Basilica. Thank you all for your time." [2021/11/07 13:35:30] Deacon Iskander: shook his head a bit and spread his arms wide. "With that closing statement I conclude this Debate. I thank all of those in attendance for joining us here, please do stop by all local stores and establishments for all your needs. May your paths be safe, fair well." He'd give a nod to those in attendance before gripping the dais quietly, conflicted by the end for certain. But at least it was done. [2021/11/07 13:41:06] ʟᴀʏᴀ ꜱᴘᴜʀɪᴜꜱ-ʀʏᴅᴇʀ (DecemberTwentyThird): truly, was an old, old elf. And by the last word issued by Ralath, she'd be yawning and grasping at the air next to her, as if classically conditioned, in her desire for wine. But when it was all done, she'd give Deacon a friendly pat on her way to Ralath, "Thanks again for hosting this. I know I cause you undue suffering sometimes, dear Deacon, but I do it from a place of love for the people." she'd tease him before she'd go towards Ralathos and offered out a hand, "I think I have much to lobby the King for in terms of the Basilica. I found it quite enlightening. Truly, when I say we should have a talk sometime about magical law, I mean it sincerely. I am glad to have your clarity to know I can work on my experiments without meddling." she'd say with a big earnest smile. That's all she'd desired. "You're an honorable man, Ser Ralathos, and a talented debater." she'd add, before she'd give a wave to Aigie, Sammy, Vaeros, and Yuuma, "Love you all, thanks for coming out today. We'll talk soon." she'd [2021/11/07 13:41:06] ʟᴀʏᴀ ꜱᴘᴜʀɪᴜꜱ-ʀʏᴅᴇʀ (DecemberTwentyThird): promise before also addressing the guards, "Thank you all for keeping this civil too. I saw your hard work down there. You are the real reason we can have these talks." she'd insist before noting Frederic, "Ah Frederic. Everything alright?" [2021/11/07 13:51:38] Ralathos: stepped down from the podium, quite pleased how that all went. After all it was exactly what he had hoped for, a chance to try and refocus the Basilica's efforts onto more serious matters. He moved up as the Queen approached and smiled briefly, bowing his head. "Your Majesty." Bringing his gaze up and regarding her. "I am pleased to hear so, I think I got the better of you in the magical topic. But I cannot deny the lack of unity in the church, perhaps that will change in time. I will be curious to hear the proposals you bring to the King about the future of the Basilica. As for the Basilica though, I will make sure it continues to work where it counts, helping those in need. A new shrine has already been opened up to welcome those of different faiths to worship in the Lower City. Progress I think." He chuckled briefly before he glanced to the crowd. "But I think you have other matters to deal with. And I have a meeting with the Guard to attend too. Although... if wish to speak to the Guard about Fevren and [2021/11/07 13:51:39] Ralathos: this "threatening" you incident, you are very welcome too. As you said yesterday in regards to the Empire. You should not tolerate disrespect in your own home." Bowing his head once more. "By your leave then?" Before he glanced to Frederic and frowned. "Do we? And as I said, I have a meeting with the Guard to attend." Sighing a little as he stepped towards the edge of the stage. [2021/11/07 13:55:44] Deacon Iskander: managed to give a wan smile to the queen at her pat and her comment, being a vassal to the King made him at times at odd with the queen, she was his wife and he respected her title if not her personage at times. But her sway over the king was far more then his own, and that was quite simply that. "I live to serve." Would be the reply given as a matter of habit, with little denoted in the tone. The words spoken near him were taken in quietly, and he would rest on the dais as he watched the goings on of the people around him. Such was the life. Fide Et Sacrificum. Comments are closed.
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